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3.7

Based on 1.688 opinions finded in 3 websites

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Nº 1662 in 2408 in Camden

Nº 197 of 281 British in Camden

CUSTOMERS TALK ABOUT DISHES WITH..chickensandwichcookedcoffeeporkroundfishcoolmustladypiesteakold

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Perfect for a post trip goodnight pint.

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Neil Le Milliere . 2024-12-10

MORE AT Google

I love this place. No one seems to know it's there. Beers are good food is good and a great place to be at before you have to get your nightmare journey home!! Couple of beers here makes it so much better!!😊

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Keith Carter . 2024-12-06

MORE AT Google

God choice of beer and central location

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Brendan Wimsey . 2024-11-17

MORE AT Google

Best pub around Euston station, Fuller's beers always excellent

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Arfur Daley . 2024-11-09

MORE AT Google

Great selection of local ales and cosy, vintage decor. I've added it to my barguide.london site too!

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Vicky Simmance . 2024-11-09

MORE AT Google

A little gem of a pub for those in the know. Great place for people watching and really lovely staff - I've been here a few times and the service is always excellent. Decent beer selection and well maintained. Rather odd layout but that adds to the character for me. They also have a resident ghost that might knock your drinks over if you sit at the back tables!!

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Reiss Bennett . 2024-11-04

MORE AT Google

This is one of my favourite pubs in London, in the Euston Station complex. Combining good beer, food, cosiness, comfortable seating areas and views of the station and buses, if you like that sort of thing. Its such a good spot to wait for a train, which I’ve done many times. You access through some winding stairs from ground level- it’s not the biggest place, but that makes it feel like a more chilled and comfortable space and like a proper pub.  It looks very bright and welcoming from the front and has lots of interesting and charming railway memorabilia around the pub to view. My favourite seat is by the window in the raised area near the bar, where you can watch the world go by. Theres a good selection of beers available and the pub does food, which is of the usual Fullers quality- I’ve had it a few times and it was pretty good. Staff are always friendly and helpful. You need to ask for the code to the loos, as they’re locked electronically, for patrons only. There's plenty of pubs and bars around this area but this is probably my favourite by a mile- definitely a more chilled and relaxing spot to wait for your train or bus than most places.

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Harry Turner . 2024-11-01

MORE AT Google

Dropped in for a pint while waiting for our train. Lovely atmosphere. Great collection of beer mats.

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Max Hamilton . 2024-11-01

MORE AT Google

Great selection of different beers. Staff are very friendly. Great location to have a few beers if your at Euston station as its 20m away

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Mandip Johal . 2024-10-23

MORE AT Google

Want a proper pub? This one's for you

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mark mats . 2024-10-11

MORE AT Google

A lovely cosy pub in an absolutely ideal location before travelling. First time I've visited.Lovely layout. I was impressed.

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Patricia Jones . 2024-10-07

MORE AT Google

If you want my opinion, THIS IS THE BEST PUB IN LONDON, only been here for 3 hours but everyone is polite and friendly. Been to other places and the people just push you out of the way. WOULD DEFINITELY RECOMMEND

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Fortnite Enit . 2024-09-24

MORE AT Google

Probably the most expensive pub we went to for the quality of the place.

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Andrew Wood . 2024-09-19

MORE AT Google

Stupid code for the toilets, put it on the sign pointing down to the bogs. So London

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chub eye . 2024-09-19

MORE AT Google

Was a bit nervous walking in as it's a little dodgy round the back by the bus station. But once upstairs I was pleasantly surprised. Good half of Guinness. Lots of railway memorabilia and a respectable crowd. Staff were friendly and efficient. Highly recommend.

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Tom Shaw . 2024-09-13

MORE AT Google

A lovely pub just outside London Euston train station. Once inside you can get emerged in the lovely surroundings and enjoy and drink and something to eat. There is a view of London from the windows but it is full of busy roads and taxis. You have to go upstairs to access the pub but not too many steps. The drinks are reasonably priced for the city and the food seems didn’t seem too expensive. Plenty of choice of drinks. I was there for a retirement celebration for a friend and whilst the many of our group took over most of the pub, there was still room for anyone else just popping in. They have their own toilets but these are back downstairs and you need a code from the bar to access them (sometimes!). A little gem of a pub in a busy city area.

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Jon Z . 2024-09-03

MORE AT TripAdvisor

Great pub with real ale's just before the station food is mainly pies and baar snacks

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Alex Berry . 2024-08-26

MORE AT Google

Great spacious bar with a relaxed atmosphere and air-conditioning. Serves a wide variety of soft and alcoholic drinks and if you fancy a snack they do pork pies and toasties.

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Max Johnson . 2024-08-24

MORE AT Google

Train times on the screen, yards from the endless scrum that is Euston concourse, a haven with Fuller's ESB. You know it makes sense.

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Chris Brown . 2024-08-15

MORE AT Google

🚇 Euston 🍺 £6.25 Cruzcampo The Doric Arch is located just outside the entrance to the main concourse of Euston Station. The nearest Tube is obviously Euston, Euston Square is also close by. This pub was built in 1963 on the site of The Plasterer’s Arms which was built in 1827. The Doric Arch pub was constructed as part of the redevelopment of Euston Station. The new redevelopment involved the demolition of the Euston Arch which the pub is named after, people are still angry that such an iconic London landmark was swept away. This @fullers pub is located on the first floor, so you’ll need to navigate some steps to get here. The bar area is ‘L’ shaped and is much larger than I expected. The decor is traditional with lots of train memorabilia dotted around the walls. There is also a multitude of pump clips showcasing which beers have graced the pumps here. The servery is a good size, the seating is ample and there are a few screens to check your train time. The beer selection was impressive and included ten cask ales. I decided on a Cruzcampo, my pint was great, price point a tad above average. The food options here are Toasties and a variety of Pork Pies. I arrived just after 6pm on a Thursday for an afterwork pint. The pub was fairly busy with post work punters, those waiting for a train or just arrived into London. The atmosphere was upbeat and relaxed at the same time. I must mention the service, the two ladies who were on duty were so welcoming and lovely. Station pubs can be a bit hit or miss, the @doricarchpub was a hit for me. The relaxed surroundings, a good choice of beers and great hospitality make for an excellent pub experience. ℹ️ Info correct on visiting 28.03.24

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London Pub Map . 2024-08-12

MORE AT Google

Surprisingly excellent pub. Much better than the exterior would suggest. Fullers beers and many guest ales, aways excellent.

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Ian Mapp . 2024-08-03

MORE AT Google

A review I regret writing. I have been coming here for around 10 years, mostly a few pints before boarding train, a friendly pub with a good selection of beers. I have been in frequently of late. A few crisp pints of Asahi & out. No issues. Today a pint was poured & i politely asked to top the pint up with a touch less head. I was answered with, “what do you mean top it up” A man (very rude it turns out) tried to explain about the precise glass etc & when I started drinking the pint, he called me & idiot & said don’t bother coming again! I will bother again as it’s a nice, friendly pub in which I’d never had a problem apart from encountering this rude man. I did ask for his name & he explained in a childish manner that he doesn’t have to give it, which is fine. I didn’t get his name but he’s white, portly & scruffy looking. Please tell me if this review is acknowledged so I don’t have to tell every project/constrution manager/ QS etc to avoid this place coming out of London. To be clear I think it’s a lovely pub, not sure if the nameless man was on holiday the last few weeks……but it was a better place without him. Oh, seeing as he’s obsessed with the CCTV, please review, hopefully it has sound. The man seemed to be looking for a row……..not a good trait when running a pub.

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Stewart Mccrossan . 2024-07-29

MORE AT Google

This real ale pub virtually on Euston Railway station in London is a place to drink when in this area Many hand pumped beers on from both large and small breweries Also, a CAMERA DISCOUNT IN PLACE FOR CAMERA MEMBERS Sunday 6th August 2023 Today, we were so lucky to come into this magnificent real ale pub virtually on London Euston Train station When I've previously been in this pub, everything is ace Staff clientelle areas of drinking and the real ales today on offer were out of this world. Today I had in this pub HOPHEAD DARK STAR AND OAKHAM INFERNO These 2 ales are out of this world, and today they both tasted great as they should Well, all done, all involved Sunday 28th january 2024 Im in Eusron Station, so i must come here to drink real ales. It's never changed for the worst. Great choice of great real ales in a propper london real ale pub Friday 26th July 2024 This pub I've never ever ever in all times been in /see previous reviws/ had any problems with the plethora of great hand pumped ales great pub owner and staff and locals who use this great London pub I will again give this pub for all merits at least 5 stars This pub is a place which gives CAMRA MEMBERS 15% DISCOUNT ON A PINT OF REAL ALE😁😁😁😁 PLEASE KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK ALL INVOLVED

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Darren Slingsby . 2024-07-26

MORE AT Google

It served a purpose as it was a hot day & we were in need of a drink, before heading home on the train. Would've had something to eat too, but the menu was unappetising, so we didn't bother. Friendly staff, is about all I can say.

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claire buse . 2024-07-21

MORE AT Google

Great pub just outside Euston station.

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Hugo Fierro . 2024-07-04

MORE AT Google

Didn't eat, so can't comment on food. Fabulous, Cosy pub minutes from Euston Station. Good service & quick service. You have to try the rhubarb cider. Simply divine.

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Richard Parkes . 2024-06-23

MORE AT Google

A delightful pub that offers a traditional feel in a unique setting. Many wouldn't know that this pub in Euston station exists as it was built within the post war modernist station just outside the main concourse, close to the bus stops and various drop off points. The pub itself is located on the first floor and is a shrine to all things London trains with British rail memorabilia scattered throughout the main bar and seating areas. Being a 'fullers'pub, a wide range of beers is guaranteed and cask ales are also available. Throughout the pub there are live departure screens so you can keep track of departures without needing to look at your phone or other sources. In summary, Doric Arch is the place to go for a pre(or post)-train pint!

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Greg “Wigan Wanderers” Knight . 2024-06-20

MORE AT Google

Nice pub but rude, patronising staff.

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Sam Jones . 2024-06-18

MORE AT Google

Great pub hidden in the environs of Euston. Remember to get your code for the khazi from the bar!

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D “Electro” . 2024-06-16

MORE AT Google

hidden gem right next to euston station its a shame its so hidden good atmosphere and friendly staff

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Trevor Reid . 2024-06-04

MORE AT Google

Handy location just outside of Euston station so if your train is delayed you can pop in for a drink. Prices are a bit high though but I guess the location has an influence on that

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Victor Djumpah . 2024-06-02

MORE AT Google

No food today just an excellent variety of drinks served by pleasant and efficient staff

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Shayne Lewis . 2024-06-01

MORE AT Google

Great pub, excellent staff and great choice of beers

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jim casey . 2024-05-31

MORE AT Google

Nice Place To Stop For A Beer When Waiting For Your Train....Toasties On The Menu....

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Michael Hinks . 2024-05-28

MORE AT Google

The grumpiest pub in London. Why everyone looks miserable there? Went there a few times and the staff never gave me a smile whatsoever. Jesus!

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Jon . 2024-05-27

MORE AT Google

Really nice atmosphere. Really pleasant staff who took the time to chat. Not tried food but will definitely return. Came on a nice sunny day, so this just added to that feel good frame of mind. Worth paying a visit even if you are not travelling through Euston. Chilled out vibe!

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iglesiasap95 . 2024-05-25

MORE AT TripAdvisor

Ok travel stop. Lively, but a bit oppressive at rush hour.

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Neil Mahony . 2024-05-16

MORE AT Google

Not a bad little pub while you're waiting for your train. Not great food choice. Reasonable priced.

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Craig Hall . 2024-05-04

MORE AT Google

A gem of a place. Very unique indeed. Great selection of 🍻

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george bradley . 2024-04-27

MORE AT Google

Pleasant and friendly pub just outside Euston station. A much nicer place to wait for your train than anywhere inside the station. Never too crowded in here but always get a few people in. Bar staff always friendly and welcoming. Usually travelling by myself through Euston but this is a perfectly welcoming place for a solo traveller to pass the time before their train.

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Matt Jackson . 2024-04-02

MORE AT Google

Nice pub, decent beer and good service

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Jon Nathan . 2024-04-01

MORE AT Google

Lovely pub with really friendly staff. Used to drop in here before making the big trek to Holyhead on the train for food and few pints and no matter how long had past since being in before they would recognise my partner, my dog and I. It’s extremely handy for Euston station as well as they have a live departures board up on the wall

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Stephen Heffernan . 2024-03-21

MORE AT Google

Very friendly, good choice of ales

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Simon Clark . 2024-03-15

MORE AT Google

It was OK. Staff were friendly and helpful. Food was disappointing. £9 for a ham and cheese toasted sandwich. Most of the 'special' pork pies were off the menu. The toilets were out of order which meant going over to Euston Station to use the public toilets. Hopefully a better experience another time.

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Deborah Brent . 2024-03-13

MORE AT Google

Good pint of London Pride at London prices.

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Graeme Metcalfe . 2024-03-11

MORE AT Google

Great, old-school Fuller's pub. Beautiful pint of ESB. What more could you ask for?

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James Smith . 2024-03-10

MORE AT Google

Titantic plum porter excellent. Asked me if I wanted a discount, excellent service! perfect place while waiting for the train.

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Rob Izzard . 2024-03-02

MORE AT Google

The security locks on the toilets are an absolute joke. The codes didn't work and we were left to rely on the patrons already inside to access the facilities.

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John Maher . 2024-02-28

MORE AT Google

Friendly and knowledgeable bar staff. Excellent selection of beers and bar snacks. And there's a screen showing departures from Euston station.

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Michael Hughes . 2024-02-24

MORE AT Google

Lovely little pub and a nice place to have a pint whilst waiting for your train platform to come up

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Dales . 2024-02-24

MORE AT Google

Very busy place. Unlike any other Wetherspoons, this one only had a relatively small menu. Staff were lovely & very helpful.

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Sally Weston . 2024-02-24

MORE AT Google

Nice old pub away from the madness of Euston station just outside. Toasties look good!

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Rob Kemp . 2024-02-19

MORE AT Google

Visit here most times when I come to London, and it’s a fantastic place with a great range of beers, with a lovely atmosphere.

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DJP056 . 2024-02-12

MORE AT TripAdvisor

Great atmosphere, very friendly bar lady

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Alana Richards . 2024-02-07

MORE AT Google

Haven't been here in years but was happy to spend a pleasant evening there. Got there before the rush so we bagged some of the super comfy chairs also. Decent selection of drinks and very good service so well worth a visit. Toilets are a whetherspoons type distance away but you can't have everything!

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Johnny Dowling . 2024-02-01

MORE AT Google

Lovely old fashioned boozer. Good beer and lovely atmosphere. Didn’t try the food.

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Colin Middleton . 2024-01-25

MORE AT Google

Great beer, discounted for CAMRA members, and excellent staff. It's a pity Fullers decided to close the kitchen, but the bar staff do a mean toastie, I'm told.

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Peter Marsden . 2024-01-24

MORE AT Google

Great pub just off Euston Station - used to be called the Head of Steam I believe. Despite an odd building / situation - walk in and it feels like a proper cosy pub. Always busy but I’ve never had to wait long to be served nor not managed to find a place to sit. Great selection of real ales (mainly Fullers) - London prices but that’s what you expect. Good service from nice staff. If you have time to kill while waiting for a train - slip in here and have a decent pint in a copy pub rather than some souless, plastic chain on the station.

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Kiboko anacheza . 2024-01-20

MORE AT TripAdvisor

Only went in for a drink very relaxing and staff were friendly pleasant afternoon

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angela jones . 2024-01-20

MORE AT Google

Friendly professional staff great atmosphere good choice of beers.

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Stuart Dadd . 2024-01-07

MORE AT Google

Stopped for a few pints before our journey back home. Very nice bar and quite reasonably priced

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Stuart . 2024-01-07

MORE AT Google

A long standing fullers pub in a very convenient location. Well kept cask ales with some guest ales in rotation. One for the railway enthusiasts

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seth bradley . 2024-01-04

MORE AT Google

Only toasties available and well over priced for what you got. They were made from a toastie machine with a handful of dorito type crisps, mustard, chilli sauce and pickles! Had an Amstel beer which was nice enough, however the place was dead and I can understand why. Reviews seem good so maybe just an unfortunate day to visit.

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Brian J . 2024-01-03

MORE AT TripAdvisor

Amazing toastie and pint of Asahi. Clean and friendly, looking forward to next visit!

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Simon Carr . 2024-01-01

MORE AT Google

It’s a really nice old railway themed pub, just perfect near to a major railway station.

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Kozsla János . 2023-12-26

MORE AT Google

Nice little pub tucked away near the bus stop. Excellent for escaping the crowds of the station.

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John Ray . 2023-12-25

MORE AT Google

Convenient for Euston station live train times shown on TV screen . Vastly overpriced drinks.

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Mark Stuttard . 2023-12-25

MORE AT Google

Great Pit stop before train but we only had drinks

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Colin . 2023-12-24

MORE AT Google

Great stop for a good beer before a train, great atmosphere and prices.

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Colin Perkins . 2023-12-23

MORE AT Google

This the first and last place when I call in to Euston on my visits to London. It is an iconic pub with genuine decor, and the beers are first class - in fact the best in the world from my point of view - Fuller’s London Pride being paramount. You will find no better real ales anywhere, and these are served to the highest standards. The team lead by a delightful manager are the best. You will not be disappointed by the beer, the atmosphere, the ambiance, and the service offered here. You just have to visit to experience the special nature of this railway pub

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Nick H . 2023-12-22

MORE AT TripAdvisor

Honestly, what a waste of time. No food and the bar staff are sullen at best. Don't advertise pies when you don't serve them.

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Danielle Beder . 2023-12-20

MORE AT Google

Good selection of beers and nice pies too, good place to while away some time at Euston before the train leaves.

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Joe Roberts . 2023-12-18

MORE AT Google

Great little pub, but very expensive, a double vodka and a pint of bitter is £19.75.

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Steve Davenport . 2023-12-15

MORE AT Google

Nice place to grab a quick beer if waiting on a train!!

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Dean Scott . 2023-12-12

MORE AT Google

Always come in for a quick pint before the train home!

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Nick Camacho . 2023-12-05

MORE AT Google

Great pub in such close proximity to Euston Station. Fabulous service, good selection of drinks, nice atmosphere.

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Mihnea Gămulescu . 2023-12-04

MORE AT Google

Decent pub tucked away on the first floor of an unattractive modern building. Good selection of beers (CAMRA discount). Popular, but not usually overcrowded. Avoid if you have difficulties with stairs.

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Ian Timaeus . 2023-12-02

MORE AT Google

Inside is a cosy friendly pub, hidden behind the grim facade of the worst architecture the 1960s could come up with. Makes me think of what the pub in 1984 might be like with good ale and friendly people. Try it, you'll be pleasantly surprised! Note it's up a set of stairs, so it's difficult if mobility is hindered for any reason.

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Ulric Schwela . 2023-11-27

MORE AT Google

I booked a table here for 12 on Friday and this was a very smooth experience. Once we arrived it was quick to order at the bar all night both food and drinks. We had Nachos, toasties and pork pies and all were enjoyable. The menu is limited (so one star off for that) but they do a good job of what they do considering it is just put together behind the bar. The staff were pleasant and efficient. It is excellently located right outside Euston. The place was busier early in the evening between say 4 and 6/7 but then emptied out a bit, however is still retained a welcoming atmosphere and due to its smaller size and multiple levels felt cosy. Quite a few steps to get up to the bar and down to the toilets so consider that. I would definitely return when in the area. We also enjoyed all of the different beers we had as a group of 7 in the end. It was one of our teams leaving drinks and most of us had travelled for several hours so it was an excellent choice for this special occasion.

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Richard Lewis . 2023-11-26

MORE AT Google

Great place to visit, my pint of Fullers ESB sadly was not as good as it should have been, slight hint of vinegar

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Kez Challacombe . 2023-11-26

MORE AT Google

Was pleasantly surprised! My friend and I stopped in for a pint after dinner before heading home and it was a really nice atmosphere. It was much quieter than other places in the immediate area, and there was no music playing so we could actually hear each other and talk

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Conni Watson . 2023-11-05

MORE AT Google

Brilliant pub with an array of Fuller's Ales....

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Jim Seaton . 2023-11-04

MORE AT Google

Staff is friendly, it's handy to grab a pint while waitng on a train.

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ross erskine . 2023-10-31

MORE AT Google

Nice place close to Euston station. We had an early lunch before taking our train. Very decent food and outstanding staff. 👌

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Dominique Foucart . 2023-10-30

MORE AT Google

Disappointed that just after 7.30pm the coffee machine had been turned off. Not acceptable. Returned October 21stt after 3pm, this time served coffee, much happier.

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Nigel Halliday . 2023-10-21

MORE AT Google

We called in here after a day in London before catching the train. A lovely pub with great atmosphere and very cosy. Staff very welcoming

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Fiona Lunt . 2023-10-20

MORE AT Google

Great for a swift half before catching the train.

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David Fisher . 2023-10-17

MORE AT Google

Called in for a quick drink, very friendly particularly for a city pub

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Alyn Jones . 2023-10-15

MORE AT Google

Seems very nice,4th time we have used this pub when traveling back from Euston

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Donna Wheeler . 2023-10-13

MORE AT Google

Very good Fuller's pub just outside Euston Station. Seven cask beers - and one cider - on handpump when I last visited. The bar is on the first floor and the toilets (entry to which require a code from the bar) are in the basement. There is no outdoor seating. An electronic departure board operates in the bar which is very useful for those popping in for a pint before a train journey.

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John Carr (Corinne and John) . 2023-10-08

MORE AT Google

I only had a coffee but it was excellent. The reason we loved this pub was because we arrived at Euston and it was seething with people and an absolute chaotic mess. We had quite a bit of time before our train and wandered outside and at the main entrance was this quiet looking pub. We ventured upstairs into an air of civilised calm and were served by two lovely people. The loos can only be entered with a code so they were clean. If you have time to kill at Euston I would suggest you head here instead of coping with the madding crowd!

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Psara Psych . 2023-10-07

MORE AT Google

Stopped here for a quick pint before catching my train. I wasn’t even aware of the pub as it’s a bit of a hidden gem but I’m glad I was introduced to it by my friend. The pub was relatively quiet even on a Friday afternoon so it was nice to get some peace and quiet aside from the hustle and bustle of the city.

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Worldtravel1992 . 2023-10-03

MORE AT TripAdvisor

Decent pub for euston,well recommended after a long day's travel.

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111672balernabz . 2023-09-29

MORE AT Google

Gem of a pub hidden in plan site. Great atmosphere and very clean. Had a couple of pints while waiting for a train, which they have an arrival and departure board. Cracking pint of London Pride and friendly helpful staff. Lots of genuine railwayana, love the Harrow On The Hill underground roundal. Would recommend.

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Timottjones . 2023-09-25

MORE AT TripAdvisor

I have no idea what people are going on about "it's hard to find" there's literally two entrances and it's right out straight from the supermarket door. Pub is oldy-worldy which is nice and it was nice and quiet. Only one staff member on which was fine for this time of day but I can imagine that being a problem if a rush came in. Didn't have any food, had to have bottled drinks as the soda was off on the pump.

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Kelly Denmade . 2023-09-23

MORE AT Google

A good range of real ales, with a Camra discount.

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Dave Minett . 2023-09-21

MORE AT Google

I have been visiting the Doric Arch regularly over the years, mainly as I pass through Euston to board an onward train. The staff have always been outstanding and the atmosphere good, although sometimes extremely busy in the past. Recently though they have stopped serving main meals and instead only offer bar snacks. This is very hard to understand since many travellers appeared to rely on it, as I also did. When huge numbers of pubs are closing due to the inability to survive only on wet sales this seems to be a risky and retrograde move. The effect can already be seen in the footfall, which appears to have significantly reduced.

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Graeme Rees . 2023-09-15

MORE AT Google

Oasis in a concrete jungle. There's great memorabilia and good real ale (and a discount for Camra members). Much nicer atmosphere than the sterile signal box inside the station. But the opening hours lottery continues. Closed tonight at 1850. Dark and bolted door. No notice on the door to explain..

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Andrew Tremas . 2023-09-03

MORE AT Google

Nice cosy place a big selection of ales and great service when not over busy. Food service pretty quick. Up a few stairs and the toilets are free but code displayed in the bar. EDIT. 2023 the menu is very basic cold pies and toasties, very disappointed though I still rated 5 due to the ale selection. Consider eating elsewhere plenty of chain outlets nearby but drink here. Good food sadly missed.

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Nic c . 2023-08-30

MORE AT Google

I travel up and down from Euston and the Doric is a blessing in disguise. Great beers.Service is second to none and the whole atmosphere is nice but not rushed considering its close to a major train station.

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stu mclean . 2023-08-30

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location-icon38 Red Lion Street
British
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Had a fantastic Christmas lunch with colleagues. Amazing staff.

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3.8

1351 Opinions

location-icon292-294 Kentish Town Rd
British
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This venue has the most incredibly friendly staff. Add to that, it's lovely decor and perfect pub atmosphere and we have ourselves a winner! This is my favourite place to be. I would highly recommend 5* (Great for football also)